The purpose of Gilgal Refaim is still a mystery and the focus of scholarly debate. Thanks again for writing. Look at guys like Shaq whos a little over 7. Yes, I agree that people in Scripture have more than one name. folklore comes from historical basis. Hi David, This is yet another example of a Canaanite people (of large size) living in Philistine cities. 1Sam. Where Will the Battle of Armageddon Be Fought? To add to the confusion, in the ancient Near East, some countries had what was known as the royal cubit, as well as the common cubit, which would be a bit shorter. Its unfortunate that though you dont know me you consider that I dont believe the biblical text. Im also a little familiar with David Rohls work. When asked if they knew anything about vanishing national archives the most frequent response was, Mari-whatta?. Hes big on both fronts, and more likely the way Goliath was. 11:22). Im not convinced, however, about his identification of Saul and Labaya. I appreciate his work. If a guy whos 8 feet cant hardly walk, theres no chance hes going to be holding a sword and fighting! Nuriel The Angel of Hailstorms and Spellbinding, Transcendental Meditation Vs Mindfulness Meditation. I have done a good amount of studying on this subject and would just love to go back and forth with someone and what not. No I believe he was 9 foot plus as even today we have 8 foot plus people and they are not descendants of Giants just hyperthyroid cases mostly.t. The Nephilim of The Bible are very easy to recognize. Seriously, Lahmi? Now imagine if he is the top fighter with the best weapons and armour? Heres why 9 feet would be out of the realm of realism. This category only includes cookies that ensures basic functionalities and security features of the website. Even though the section begins by stating the Israelites were at war with the Philistines, the individuals named in the following verses who are killed by Israelites are called Rapha. Regarding whether the name Lahmi (clearly a semitic name) could be used by someone from the city of Gath (see below why I dont say Gob as the MT of 2 Sam. Nephilim May God bless you all with so much unwavering faith..!!! True Andy. 69 wouldnt be intimidating enough to even warriors who were 53. Just a thought. Scripture indicates that there were giants on the earth in those days and also afterwards. A final point I would make is that there are some scholars who believe that the text of 1 Chron. 1. Especially if the people have a past history of being part of that bordering culture. So he must have been even taller then King Saul by a great measure therefore causing great fear perhaps humiliating Sauls position as the great King of Israel. Thats whats going to happen in the future when someone digs up former NBA players in 100 years! Thank you for your very kind and encouraging words! Interestingly, the bible, the Tamid and the Among these are the belief that the biblical writers did not intentionally distort their history. This bed was associated with the Babylonian ziggurat at Etemenanki (see link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etemenanki) which is believed to be related to the Tower of Babel. Physically, they were not different than us. We bring the sources and encourage the viewer to ask questions, to continue to study and do their own research.. Depending on the size of an individual, the common cubit would be even less than the royal cubit. That is not the purpose of this blog. nef'-i-lim (nephilim): This word, translated "giants" in the King James Version, but retained in the Revised Version (British and American), is found in two passages of Hi Morris, Smugly Watching Jan 11, 2021 @ 9:14pm. The MT (from which the reading 99 comes from) has a history that goes back to the BC time period. If some come to light that would be fascinating. As I have emphasized in other responses to this post, this has nothing to do with my belief in the inspiration of the Bible. In other words, which reading, 4 cubits and a span, or 6 cubits and a span, seems to have the most solid evidence for being the original reading? God bless! Even though they were not blood related, the Israelites also shared some common characteristics with Canaanite people (even intermarrying with some!). But from above it is quite impressive, revealing itself to be five concentric rings with the outer ring measuring more than 500 feet wide. Either way, these creatures are becoming more and more popular in todays culture. 21:19. I think the term Giant means Giant. Its more realistic Goliath would have been in the high 7 foot range tops. Therefore, although the story in 1 Samuel 17 may not refer to Goliath as a giant, it seems certain that other passages indicate he was a descendant of the Nephilim. Not by rolling on treesCarried by huge men. Lets start with Genesis 6:4 in one of the Modern versions, the NIV: Genesis 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those daysand also afterwardwhen the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. I wish we could go back in time and see these things Arian! Kiriath Arba, also known as Hebron, was located in Judah and part of the Land of Canaan. The reference to Rapha in 2 Samuel 21 doesnt really mean giant, although the Rephaim were considered to be a very tall people. The things you site in your comments (Wall of China, South America, etc) are not evidence for people of that height. None of it adds up to a story worth telling if he was only 69. Also, nowhere does it state in 2 Samuel that the person they are talking about is Goliath. The statement that we seemed as grasshoppers in their sight is intended to emphasize the difference in height and possible strength, but it is hyperbole also. Given that the common height of an ancient Israelite was somewhere between 5 feet and 5 feet 3 inches, this could make the common cubit somewhere between 16-17 inches. The Nephilim are referenced in Genesis and Numbers and are possibly referred to in Ezekiel. This article is an attempt to solve an interesting problem. It also includes the belief that editors of the text were not clumsy baffoons who inserted contradictions they hoped others would not notice (or that they were not aware of themselves). Please prove your assessment that the average height of the ancient Hebrews were only 5 or so. Nephilim I have no problem with those who want to assert that Goliath was 9 ft. tall. Furthermore, 2 Samuel 21:15-22 relates four stories of Philistines who are killed by Davids men. Nephilim, in the Hebrew Bible (the Christian Old Testament ), a group of mysterious beings or people of unusually large size and strength who lived both before I dont buy into this. Biblical characters did often have more than one name as do monarchs. The point of the article is to examine Scripture and see where the evidence leads. Some argue against the 4 cubits and a span reading by saying if Saul was head and shoulders taller than anyone else in Israel, and the average Israelite was 5 feet. What Is The Purpose Of The Mantra During Meditation? The Bible describes the Nephilim in several places, Landa said. If you check the Hebrew text, Goliath is never referred to as a giant. I still stand by my other observations (1,2,3). a grasshopper is not a foot shorter. Lahmis parents had actually visited an Olive Garden restaurant just across the border and Lahmis mother really loved the breadsticks. Shorter still, being between 8 & 99. 56,899 Views. WebHow tall were the biblical giants? In the pre-diluvian sixth chapter of Genesis, the Bible says that the Sons of Elohim cohabited with the daughters of men. Since the average height in the ancient Near East was between 5 feet and 53, and since archaeology seems to confirm this (at least to this point), and since the textual evidence leans toward the reading of 4 cubits and a span, I conclude that Goliath was most probably on the taller side of the 6-foot range, as opposed to the 9-foot range of the MT. Whichever way our prejudices run, they do not help us get at the truth of Goliaths height. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. Moshe Garsiel in his recent commentary on 1&2 Samuel presents an interesting argument that Elhanan is another name for David. Billington notes that an 18 inch cubit would mean the person was about 5 feet 8 inches (taller than most Israelites of this period). It would be akin today to saying that the only people who live in New York City are Americans, or the only people living in London are English. Behind the Scenes Universe The fact is that the Hebrew version (MT) and the Greek version (LXX) have different readings. The bigger a person becomes, the harder it is on their organs. 1) Such a claim is based on him having been an Anak and the claim that Anakim were descendants of Nephilim. 17:5 He had a helmet of bronze on his head, and he was armed with a coat of mail, and the weight of the coat was five thousand shekels of bronze. 6 feet tall). I assure you this is not an attempt to do away with what the Bible says. I am a believer and see the Bible as Gods inspired Word. The Bible makes it crystal clear that Goliath is not a giant. Thank you Jamie. God bless! Learn how your comment data is processed. However, it is never my intention to enter into a prolonged debate. No the ancient Hebrews are not the same as any of the nationalities I listed. When there is a discrepancy such as this, this is what people who love the Scripture should do. They are Giants! I know that some things in the bible are hard to grasp and I know the desire is to defend these issues in the modern world that believes the bible to be myth and fairytale. 2) Such a claim is based on him having been subjectively unusually tall and the claim that Nephilim were unusually tall. The Nephilim in Numbers Chapter 13 My understanding of what hes saying is that even though the Lahmi brother of Goliath occurs in the Chroniclers account (which was obviously compiled later), this particular passage reflects an earlier form of the text. Dear Tabitha, The Samuel text is well-known for having suffered in transmission. Giants in the Bible: Who Were the Nephilim? - Learn Religions 21:19Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) has suffered in transmission. The most important difference is their impressive height. Its a fascinating study and one that nicely demonstrates how the bible has been changed over time. The explanation you offer also comes with an agenda and that agenda is clearly seen in your sarcasm toward the biblical accounts. As one scholar notes, the point of the story may be to show that tall Saul is the right candidate to face Goliath, but he is too fearful. Which is interesting because its the length of the Ark. Others, however, believe it is related to the Hebrew word "naphal," meaning "to Just because I may think the LXX has the correct reading in this case doesnt make me less of a believer. Where does one derive that figure? As for the Nephilim and their descendants, I am in agreement that they are the offspring of the sons of God and the daughters of men as recorded in Gen. 6:1-4. The writers of the New Testament quoted from it frequently. Im not accusing anyone of anything here and I dont begrudge you a differing opinion. Simply that we are often too hasty in our judgment of what is going on in the text. and 2 Sam. If you have done any archaeological work yourself, or if you have some credible archaeological sources that refute this stat, I would certainly be interested in knowing about those sources. The name Jaare-Oregim is incorrect and the Oregim has been accidentally copied from the statement of the weavers beam later in the verse. Again, Im not sure how he defends that. Randy, Well as he was a descendant of a Giant race of people surely 6 foot 9 inches would make him a midget ? Hays also argues that it is much easier to explain how 4 cubits was changed to 6 cubits rather than the other way around. For example, consider the following two passages: Enoch 6:1-2: 1. Hays points out the well-known fact that the MT of 1&2 Samuel has a number of scribal errors. It should be recalled that Goliath is from Gath. BTW, the word giants there is a different Hebrew word Rephaim. Michael Heiser in his book The Unseen Realm points out that Ogs bed size does not necessarily refer to his height but may have another meaning which I cant use the space for here. We see demons everywhere, in movies, shows, in . So, Goliath was a giant. Like a cubit, the length of a span depends on the size of the person. In my opinion, this may be the case here. I appreciate your interacting with me on these topics David. Perhaps some items have gone missing. In my article I do point out that 2 Sam. 13:3233 ). Look at all the ones in recorded history, they all needed canes to walk meaning so too did Goliath. His most popular height estimate is 164cm which people often use in non game based height charts and his datamined height was around that mark as well 162cm. Ask yourself, is it possible that Goliaths parents, being good Philistines and giving Goliath a Philistine name, would give his brother the name Lahmi? The Bible does in fact describe them as very large people, but again nothing in the range that you are proposing. Interesting thoughts about the Egyptian Craig. I totally agree. But the size of these giants in no way compares with the Nephilim of Genesis 6 as described in non-canonical books, such as the Damascus Document This reference is to Goliath and here he is associated with the Rephaim, who were also considered to be descendants of the Nephilim. Even in the 1800s care was taken, although it was not as admittedly sophisticated as it is today. In Hawaii Smithsonian collaborated with the Bishop Museum on our Hawaiian Islands relics and artifactswe ARE outraged still that our ancestors are NOT at rest stored in a wooden box in a foreign country or on display. Of course, they might also choose to adopt a Philistine name such as Goliath.The Anakim are also said by the biblical writer to have remained in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod (Josh. You obviously think otherwise, but the grasshopper comment is indeed ancient hyperbole. So. Brothers and sisters, when we read a headline that reads, Warriors annihilate Rockets in Game 6, we dont actually think that one basketball team committed violence against another. First, we should not judge Goliaths height based on modern standards, but rather on ancient Near Eastern standards. I appreciate it! These pictures of so-called Nephilim are dubious (see photo above on left). Numbers 13:33. The Nephilim are the offspring of The Watchers mating with the daughters of men. Why do I bring this up? Ive given the reasons why I believe the LXX has the original reading. No, with the four categories of giant the Bible gives, Goliath was merely regarded as a giant, but not a true one. It is mandatory to procure user consent prior to running these cookies on your website. In the end, what matters is that faith in, and zealousness for, YeHoVaH will lead us to victory and keep us humble: the battle always belongs to Him. You raise some good questions. Nephil | Alien Species | Fandom This second figure seems impossibly low for a giant like Goliath and we might be tempted to automatically throw it out as a possibility. And that would really only be a dog vs man height to a man vs someone that was as tall as a man vs a dog. By the time David was born, there were no more giants, descendants of giants who were less than 10 feet tall, as well as tall men were around however. Im seeking which may be the original reading. People who where very tall, but not true giants. David was a boy when he killed goliath he was taller than the average israelite but was a boy between 12 and 14 (i am guessing). The passage mentioning his fathers name has been clearly corrupted, leading to confusion. How tall were the Nephilim | Christian Forums Competent scholars use this kind of language frequently, recognizing the connections between Israel and these other nations. kranttu 2 yr. ago. WebThe Nephilim in Hebrew is translated to fall and is interpreted by many as the Fallen Angels due to mentions in ancient texts. What is interesting about the inscription is that the letters used are Hebrew/Canaanite letters. This website uses cookies to improve your experience. I would take exception with a few things in your statement. Great, you might say, what exactly is a cubit? A cubit is the distance between the elbow and the tip of the middle finger, or roughly, 18 inches. Therefore, there is a high chance that youve already met a nephilim in person. You find out in Chapter 14 of Numbers as well as Chapter 13 of Numbers that the report given was a bad/evil report. God bless, yeah I could easily say they looked like they were in the giant category. If you click on the links in my article you will find the information you are requesting. Anytime there is a suggested reading that is different, I want to hang on to the reading of the MT. It would seem cubit would get longer (due to increasing physiological conditions and such), but even if bodies were a little larger in the early CE, a cubit size could have been calculated smaller than in earlier times (for whatever reason). 9+ feet would indeed be a giant. 5 total brothers as David knew when he killed Goliath that Goliaths brothers would come after him. Just to throw I spanner in the works. The fact that his coat of chain mail was 125 pounds alone Now Im sure there are some of us that could put that on our shoulders, but do you think you can fight like that? 3:11. They are descendants from Ham. Thanks Randy, always a delight to read your well reasoned articlesLove ya mate It is a misnomer to think that only Philistines lived in Philistine cities or that only Israelites lived in Israelite cities. Youre welcome Rick. This verse predates David and Goliath right? Nephilim There is much mystery surrounding the Nephilim. Intentional Ambiguity as Literary Art. This article demonstrates that when we jump too quickly to a conclusion to explain an apparent contradiction, we may well come up with the wrong answer when a better answer is readily available. I therefore believe its possible that later scribes revised based on the 18 inch cubit length that was prevalent at the time of the Masoretes when they updated the numbers to an 18 inch system (widely in use at the time). Thanks! The description of his tall stature certainly suggests a connection with the descendants of the Nephilim. Neanderthal fossils lack the predominant chin of humans and a last set of molars. This would have allowed the site to be used to predict the beginning of the rainy season, a very important survival skill. I looked into this matter further. Fallen Angel Blood Type | The Ancient Bloodline of the Nephilim The average height of people in the ANE, based on what Ive read, is based on the bones that have been uncovered. Hi Marla, Average height of Jewish men in David's time is said to be about 5 feet tall. I just found your blog and I appreciate your writing and care for the Word. Sorry for bad spelling. Some Giants are as tall as the trees of Lebanon and those trees are described here as 130 tall Cedrus libani, commonly known as the cedar of Lebanon or Lebanon cedar, is a species of cedar native to the mountains of the Eastern Mediterranean basin. I propose what we should do to put this into perspective, is not consider it a beauty pageant but a spiritual metaphor. Goliath had 3 relatives later killed not sure their height was recorded. Apparently, Sir Isaac Newton argued that the sacred cubit length of the Egyptians was beteeen 24.90 and 25.02 inches. Hi Ajam, We present the evidence and we invite people to research to reach their own conclusions, Landa said. Problem solved, Goliath grows from 66 to approximately 99. Based on Genesis 14:13, which describes a fugitive (Palit) who told Abram about Lots capture, Jewish tradition teaches that Og was alive in the time of Noah but escaped the flood by clinging to the side of the Ark. Different times and different cultures often result in a different way of assessing things. Best wishes and God bless. The Jerusalem Post Customer Service Center can be contacted with any questions or requests: Gilgal Refaim is an ancient megalithic monument in the Golan Heights (Credit: Hebrew Wikipedia user ., CC BY-SA 3.0), Sign up for The Jerusalem Post Premium Plus for just $5, Upgrade your reading experience with an ad-free environment and exclusive content, Copyright 2023 Jpost Inc. All rights reserved, Sign up for our Christian World newsletter >>. The dittography in the text and the other problems dont change this fact. As to your final point. . Your response is excellent. Israelites, Edomites, Moabites, Ammonites, all shared a common ancestry, as the Bible makes clear. For example, the royal cubit in Egypt was 20.65 inches, while in Babylonia it was 19.8 inches (Clyde E. Billington, GOLIATH AND THE EXODUS GIANTS: HOW TALL WERE THEY?, JETS, 50/3, 2007, pp. Look at Robert Wadlow (the one mentioned who was 8 feet, 11.1 inches tall at last measurement). The name Bashan is derived from the proto-Semitic root Ugaritic term btn, meaning serpent.. When I read this story in the bible and took time to figure out the size , it came up to 9 and 6 tall. There seems to be something missing 1 Samual 9:2. I will have more to say about this below. You mention that the word giant is not mentioned in 1 Samuel 17. Produced by The Inspiration Networks, a faith-based family entertainment network, Angels & Giants, The Watchers & Nephilim presents four one-hour segments that are a serious investigation into the theories behind the Biblical giants.
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